Ultimate Universe - part 2
===
[00:00:00] /now I went back and read Ultimate Invasion and you're absolutely right because I treated Ultimate Spider Man as just another Spider Man book that I enjoyed, but now that I re read Ultimate Invasion.
Yes. I came into the shop today, early in the morning before anyone got here. Cause I missed out Saturday because I had to work on my day job. Right. Cross pass with Mr. St. James and he gave me a little note of, Hey, do you remember Ultimate Invasion? I was like, I think I got them and kind of thumbed through them, but I like Ultimate Spider Man.
You need to go back and read that. There's some things in there that, you know, probably would flesh out the rest of the. It actually made me It actually made me appreciate Ultimate Black Panther more. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So, you know how We were talking about Across the Spider Verse, Jason.
And you had said that, like, You didn't realize that there was going to be a part two. Correct. So when you got to the end, it was like, What the heck happened to the Okay. So I was reading I was [00:01:00] reading some article yesterday, and they were talking about some film that's come out recently that, that ends similarly.
And they actually referenced that, you know, it was like, you know, when Across the Spider Verse came out, and the guy writing the article was like, you know, I knew there was going to be a part two, but clearly most of the people in the movie theater that I was in did not know that there was going to be a part two, and they were not happy at not getting an ending.
So, validation to you, sir. But well, thinking Now, given what I do for a living, well No, don't just don't. Just say, yeah, you're right, they screwed up. Yeah, we'll just leave it at that, because That leads us nicely into, because that's a marketing gaffe, isn't it? I mean, if you're doing a part one, and you're gonna have a part two, might be a good idea.
I mean, Mission Impossible was able to do it. You know, just go ahead and tack part one on there. That's right. Well, so my thing is, I try not to watch a lot of About the movie before I see the movie right on purpose, right? I don't want to I don't want to support because a lot of [00:02:00] times I'll spoil all the best bits Especially comedies if you want to see a comedy don't watch.
Yeah, right reviews But you know the having part one on the poster maybe might not win or you know One of two problems or you know, yeah, so speaking of marketing gaffes ultimate invasion What I didn't realize When that series came out last year, is that was actually going to be Jonathan Hickman's launching pad for redoing the Ultimate Universe.
Maybe that was communicated somewhere? I missed it. Because it was only, I read Ultimate, I read it, and I was like, oh, okay. And then read Ultimate Spider Man. And I thought we, I'd forgotten that we talked about Ultimate stuff, so I went back and re read it. And realized, oh yeah, you actually really, do yourself a favor, go back and re read Ultimate Invasion, and then jump [00:03:00] right away into Ultimate Spider Man.
Because the thread is totally there. And you also need that Ultimate Special that was right after. There was an Ultimate Special? There is. Oh shoot, I don't know how. Yeah, there's a, it, another hit, the Ultimate Invasion is four issues, and then this standalone special is Iron Lad and Reed Doom putting other, putting all the players in, I mean it's very subtle.
Now, I will tell you, the ultimate, I went back and looked at the ultimate universe marketing, and this is where we're jaded as comic book fans. Because it says, Hickman launches a new universe. And I think the fact they said, new universe, probably scarred us back in the 80's. But they didn't put a lot of fanfare.
Because every creator is launching every year in D. C., you're launching a new universe. Marvel has avoided it, but, and you're laughing, but I mean I am laughing. It is a The new 52. Yeah and, for us that grew up with [00:04:00] the ultimate Batman, Universe when it came around to that drunken bar bet between bill jimis and right all the editorials We probably kind of looked at it.
I mean think about what did you think about when You saw ultimate invasion, but they said ultimate spider man like oh, what are they going to do this time? Is it going to be young peter parker again? We didn't even drill down into what it was going to be, and then you got to your issue in your hand, and you went, Oh crap, this is the Peter Parker I always wanted, and missed.
And that's my problem with it. And once again, Marvel, I guess, because they couldn't make an animated series out of it, or maybe the MCU is scaring them right now, they didn't want to put a whole lot of, I don't think they thought it was going to do as well as it did. I don't know. I, all I know is that the reason why I picked up Ultimate Invasion was number one because Jonathan Hickman wrote it and, you know, I'm a big ol fan of Mr.
Hickman. And number two, because I like the character of the maker, so I was like, oh, this will be fun. But I thought it would be just like a self [00:05:00] contained little. You know, one of the survivors of that universe is gonna mess around with our heroes and da. I'm actually not even entirely sure that I read issue four of that, because I reread it and I was like, I don't remember any of this.
But yeah, so it turns out no, very important, and sets up the dynamic of what you then see in the first issue. Ultimate Spider Man with this Tony Stark travesty and all that kind of stuff. They're actually going back to the 90s, taking teenage Tony Stark, and making it a better story than it was when they de aged him in the Avengers before Heroes Reborn started.
That's the way I look at it. Oh wow. They took that, pardon me kids, shit storyline that they decided that Tony was evil, and killed him in this teenage version. Right. It's a little bit different, but now Teenage Tony Stark running around his iron lab. Yeah, makes all the sense in the world. Who will then be Kang.
Yeah Spoilers. [00:06:00] So you've read Ultimate Spider Man. We did talk about that. Yes, I haven't read 3 yet. I've read 1 and 2. Oh, okay, so we can't talk about that because 3 has a big reveal. So, there's a big reveal on the last page. I think I'm okay with it being spoiled. No, I don't want to do that to you because I'm not that guy.
I mean, I'm enjoying it. It is good. I like it a lot. It's, you know, it's great. We talked about this a bunch last time. And, what's so funny is the way that these are being released, the last one hasn't, Didn't put out yet, and we're, you know, a couple weeks in. Right. So, I'm going to this'll just be a part two to that.
Right. But but yeah, I just Last week, we just covered this. Yeah, I know, and I don't want to Okay, so, Ultimate Black Panther. I read the first two issues of that. That's got a very MCU feel to it. Yeah. It really does. Like, They're [00:07:00] kind of bringing in the tone or the structure of it a bit.
And, I mean, it was good, but of course then the villains in that, if you don't remember Ultimate Invasion, you're not necessarily going to get the significance of why this whole Moon Knight thing. And I read Ultimate X Men, which is, have you read that? I did. And then I had to watch our friend over on Casually Comics YouTube channel.
Did she say what she said about it? Because she, well, she explained it better. Because I am not a Japanese animation fan as far as I don't read a lot of source material. No. No manga for you. No. I mean, I appreciate your Did you read it backwards? I tried to read it upside down while I was watching Blade Are you supposed to read that issue backwards?
I don't know, while I was trying to read When I was watching Blade Runner, I was reading that, and and then it just all went to hell. Boys and girls, what you're not aware of is the discussion prior to hitting record about Blade Runner [00:08:00] and the fact that no Even though Mr. Scott has seen this movie hundreds and hundreds of times Yeah, I don't remember, I don't remember one damn thing.
There's a total recall mind wipe in there. I know Han Solo's in it, and the chick that was gonna play Catwoman, and then the guy from Blind Fury was running around in there. I loved Blind Fury. I love Blind Fury too, it's great. I love those trashy 80's B movies with Rooker Howard, that and A Breed Apart.
But so, and I'm also, and don't shoot me, I'm not a Peach Momoko art fan. She does, this person does good art. Oh, it's an acquired taste. But I'm not I don't jump at her covers. Right. But I, so I grabbed this thing and first I thought, oh, the Shadow King's running around. Torturing I don't even have that thought.
And then, but then after watching Sasha, I mean, Sasha brought it up, but then she, as she was delving into the Asian history and background, I'm beginning to think that this is [00:09:00] a deity of some sort that I have no knowledge of, which is good. That adds to suspense. So actually, because of what Casually comics YouTube channel said right I'm gonna pick up the second issue because I read the first one went well This is garbage and set it aside And then I watch that channel went.
Oh, sorry maybe maybe maybe I need to Because now I get a feeling it's all linked now. I've read ultimate invasion Because before I reread ultimate evasion, I was gonna stick in my spider man lane, right? Because that's giving me the spider man That I've wanted, Mary Jane, married, kids, still goofy you know, so y'all both read Issue 2.
Yes. Yes. His conversation with Electro, or Shocker. Oh, it was so perfect. That was just great. I mean, that was so Peter Parker luck. But you're still an adult. You're like, oh really? I'm not going to hit you this time. Oh you're not? Boom! [00:10:00] That just plays. Yes. That was such a good Spider Man comic. You know what's funny?
I tried to pick up Spectacular Spider Men. And I really wanted to like that because I'm a Miles fan, like Peter. And I didn't get the, I didn't get the Spidey vibes from it. It wasn't great. So I play the game too. I play the PlayStation game and the two of them together in the game are really fun.
So I've come to appreciate the two characters interacting quite a bit. Sensational Spider Man didn't give it to me. I picked it up on Mr. St. James's You guys liked it. And I did enjoy it. Oh good. I'm glad you liked it. I enjoyed it. Hear that boys and girls? You should get one too. Yes.
Right here at the Multiverse. com shop. Here he goes. Pitch pitch. One, I picked up Web of Spider Man. And that was, felt like an anthology ad. That was just a big ad. Yeah. But fine. But you know, back to the ultimate [00:11:00] verse. Now that I've read Ultimate Invasion, which the trade paperback came out this week too, kids.
I'm holding it up in front of the microphone like you can see it. Does it have the special in it? It does not have it. It's just got Ultimate Issues. Now I appreciate the whole universe for what it is, because when they first threw it out there, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna get this adult Peter Parker for about 25 issues before they cancel it.
Right. Or the heroes from 616 are gonna show up and stomp the maker into paste. I'm And this universe is going to disintegrate right now. I see there's all this cabals and, you know, you always got to stay away from cabals. The idea that the Rasputins are running Russia, the Hulk is basically a self help guru, but you know, he's got his little cut of the world.
That is more intrigued that'll make me keep up with most of the universe. I don't know what this ultimate Avengers is going to be. Cause they're bringing that out. And that special sets up who's going to be in there. [00:12:00] It also sounds like they're going to, or looks like Captain America is going to be The spirit of old, reminding everyone what wonderful 1940 ish times and morals kind of Ah, it's easy for him to say that.
It is. The whole greatest generation. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Amen. So that's I It's rare that I say, go out and pick up all the crossover kids. Because, Well, I like, so there's this premise and you get it in Ultimate Invasion and then it's in the be it's in the lead in copy that's in the beginning of each of the issues.
Yeah. Where they kind of bring you up to speed on the nefarious plan to the maker and the society of super villains of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But he talks about how his plan was to, I guess he's. Created this world I don't know that it is the universe from the old ultimate comics or if he has created a new universe Feels like it's a new universe.
a new one. Cause they even [00:13:00] labeled it, what, 6160? Yeah, do you, does anybody remember what, did they give a designation to the old, ultimate universe? They did, and I think it's like 618, or 618. 618, okay. You know what, if only we had a, If only there was a magical device that,
You distract him while I look it up. But he talks about how the maker has gone and set things in motion so that there won't be superheroes. Now, so I'm kind of, after deep diving this, I'm taking a broad view on this. Like, okay, well, You've got that thing in Ultimate Invasion where there's all those Avengers clones.
So clearly somebody has got his own way of manufacturing superheroes. We know that he prevented Peter, but spoilers galore here kids, [00:14:00] he prevented Peter Parker from getting bit by the spider. But Tony Stark has a Has an antidote to that. See what I did there? Antidote, spider venom, there you go. And mutants I guess are going to occur because that's not something that you eng That's, you know, we know they exist because you've got Colossus and Illyana Rasputin.
He just turns the mutants bad. I guess, but I was like thinking, okay, so in that first issue of Ultimate Spider Man, you've got the eulogy the remembrance eulogy being read by Father Murdoch. So, we don't know if that's true. Is he a daredevil? Does he not have his powers? He became a priest. We don't know.
It's going to be interesting to find out who's actually got superpowers or who doesn't because of things that the maker has done. The only one we really know about I think [00:15:00] he's Peter Parker. Well, so The original Ultimate Universe is 1610. Right, okay. Really? Yeah. Okay, 1610. 1610. So this one And it says it was destroyed right before the Second Secret War but was recreated.
The only residents that survived was Miles Morales and the Maker. And they're the only two that made it to 616. Right. The new universe is 6160. 6160. Now, what you're talking, what you're talking about which heroes are missing what, that's covered in the missing special that you haven't read. Right.
Because, Of course. Doomreed and Ironlad show up to the maker's lair. Right. With Ultimate Thor, and it's a kind of an Ocean's Eleven thing where there are several containers that house hundreds or several hundreds of trinkets or icons that would have created heroes, but the maker plucked them out.[00:16:00]
of the time stream. So the only ones that, the only people who gained powers were people he deemed useful. I'm gonna have to find that book. It's one issue. It might be around here somewhere. It's not on the wall. I just took a look at the title. But that, that and they don't get very specific about what's in there.
It's not like, oh, we broke them all open and now we all have heroes. It's, they're trying to get it and as in Ocean Eleven, things go to shit. So, they make off with some, don't make off with others, but they're not very specific on what they got away with. So at this point in time, I'm going to tell you that Murdoch does not have his powers.
He is father, and I think the maker in one of his soliloquies in, Ultimate Invasion is that there's always commonalities in every universe, but No one's hunting him in this one He's created right because he keeps hanging on to the name if you remember in the startups the I think the first two issues is he keeps remembering the [00:17:00] Conversation he has with Reeve from 616 where it's if you had your choice, would you?
Let me be created reads like no, so I think that's what's yeah, I think that's what's motivating The maker or whatever, you know, right junior to build this universe Well now I need to go back because I really don't know how the maker became the maker I don't know when the ultimate universe what I what happened Was it the ultimatum where the world, the Don't quote me on this, but I feel, because in Hickman's Fantastic Four run, he had the Council of Reeds, which we then have Rick and Morty's Council of Ricks.
Yeah. So, I've got a funny feeling there's a connection to that, but I might be completely wrong. But, I mean, it's a fascinating character. Anyway, we don't need to, to deep dive too much. We can kind of bounce into some other books here while we're chatting. But what I'm, my only other lingering question Is.
Is Jonathan Hickman's role going to be [00:18:00] like his role was with all the mutant books, where he was head of X? You had other writers, but there was sort of a guiding hand on the tiller, so to speak. I do wonder, is that what Hickman's role is here? Because, if so, Fine. Hopefully we learned some lessons about, you know, meandering from all things X, but it, I don't know.
I think what is it? Maybe that's a bitchy thing to say. Well, I mean. He lost me. Like, I got one of the first times ever in my comic book reading I was super into X Men. House and Powers, he hooked me in. He hooked me in, so I was there. I was there for, gosh, probably the first, I know I got to issue 17 of the X Men, because issue 17 is probably one of my favorite comics of all time.
I believe that one was when professor X Magneto they're having dinner at the United, they go to dinner at the United Nations. Cyclops [00:19:00] is taking people out. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Underground, taking out the people who were supposed to be taking them out. Like it would, and, but they're taking them out.
Like, With their powers while they're having a conversation. Yes. Yeah. It's all running. Yeah. That was an excellent issue. That was, that's one of my favorite things I've ever read. So I, he had me a long time. He hadn't hit me a couple of years. Right. And then like Dugan, Dugan was good on Marauders, but he came over to X Men and.
I was, I've been lost. I think it's the, and we've seen this problem with Hickman books in the Marvel Universe, is that a lot of times he shows up with a grand plan and a huge binder and he's smarter than the editors, and when I say smarter, the story is just huge, and then somewhere in there. So, yeah.
Sales dip. Interest wanes. And there was no, you know, no, [00:20:00] oh, Hickman was fired or run off the X Men kind of stories like you used to hear about Claremont or anything. But he left before the story was wrapped up. He probably gave notes. I wouldn't want Hickman notes given to me because I don't have time to read an encyclopedia.
And I got an idea, a two page summary, you lose a lot of what he was gonna do anyhow. So, I think the lesson is, I don't want to follow, if I'm a comic book writer, I don't ever want to follow Jonathan Hickman. No. Because, whether the book is doing great, or it's at that, What the hell's going on kind of phase you've got.
I mean, think about the next X Men writer that's coming in and granted, they're doing all kinds of stuff with this hell file. I call it the hellfire gala explosion where fall of X rise of X all this. Okay. I can't just walk in behind Hickman and just start writing the X Men because we're on Mars. We've got plants that do all that.
If I want to bring them back to [00:21:00] what used to sell the hell, the school. Subplots Secondary characters, I've figured out a way to blow up that whole universe I got to bring and what which is what they're doing. Yeah. Yeah, and they're doing with 30 different crossovers and they're doing it over a year and I've lost interest in some of the cross.
So, you know, I don't know what dead x men are. I mean immortal x men What are you doing? Phoenix is gonna be the ultimate Dead Version of herself. Xavier's having to kill people to reset the timeline. And Steven, you said many times, there's going to reset the button. It's going to be a time travel thing, but that's.
That's a lot of work coming up behind a Hickman story. You know, in the old days, it was just, Maybe I like Wolverine more than Nightcrawler. Let's write about him. You know, the Cochran John Byrne handoff. You know, Cochran was a huge Nightcrawler fan. Hated Wolverine. Byrne showed up, went, A Canadian! I love Wolverine, [00:22:00] and I hate Nightcrawler.
It's none of that, but if you look at the Avengers, that Hickman had to clean up, or the poor bastards that had to come behind Hickman, They never really got that right. That adventure, that, I mean, you got Starbrand running around there, you've got all these things, and it just, they had to reset, they had to restart the book again.
Fantastic Four brought, and it's not saying it's quality's bad, but it's just, I would much rather come behind a grumpy Chris Claremont and tell him that Kitty Pryde was never that important anyhow, and I'm gonna I'm gonna make her British, then clean up the Council of Reeds. Okay, I've gotta, I'm sorry, I've gotta jump in here now, cause you're just, that's a bridge too far, my friend.
Well, yeah, but there's a couple of things that I'm gonna add into that. Okay, so, with, when it came to Hickman on Fantastic Four, which then led to Avengers, which then led to Secret Wars, that is all one big math, massive story, [00:23:00] and it ended with blowing everything up, and then kind of zhooping back together.
And then we got Dan Slott. And then we got Dan Slott's Fantastic Four. We got Dan Slott's Fantastic Four. I'm just saying the man that comes behind Hickman. I'm not critical of the storyline. I'm just talking about the poor bastard who has to show up. I understand. I understand. But, you know, this is the beauty of these storytelling things.
Is that, you know, Look, if you're a rock band and you're going to follow the Rolling Stones on stage, then That's how you're going to find out if you're a good rock band or not. But he needs to end his story. I think with the X Men, he didn't get to end the story. He didn't, and I don't think we'll ever, we're ever going to know how, and we talked about this in a previous podcast, I don't know how much of it we're ever really going to know, but what I can tell you gentlemen is, because I don't think you're reading it, but I am, is that Marvel did something very smart When we were all getting lost in the quagmire of multiple X series and blah, and [00:24:00] whatever.
Is that he's got Jerry Dugan on X Men, and he's got Kieran Gillen on Immortal X Men. Those were actually the only two series that you needed to read. If you wanted to flow down on what Hickman started with House of X and Powers of X. And what's happened now is that you've got Dugan on Let me see if I get this straight.
He's still on X Men. He is, but Even the X Men book has become secondary. They ended Immortal X Men. And now you've got Dugan on X Men, and you've got Kieran Gillen on this four issue X Men Forever thing that's basically tying and answering some questions. And then you've got Dugan on Fall of the House of X, and Gillen on Rise of the Powers of Ten.
So, if we're doing the equation, Dugan plus Gillen [00:25:00] equals Hickman, maybe? I mean, no, absolutely no disrespect to those two creators, but that's kind of how it flows out, is that you've got Gillen, Kieran Gillen is sort of covering the philosophical bent, and Dugan is covering the action bent, whereas Hickman kind of started off doing both things himself.
All I can tell you is, I'm really digging the fall of House of X and Rise of the Powers of X thing that's going on now. It's the first time in a while that I've come back to the X Men. Because we were all like, oh shoot, he's going to kill Moria McTaggart. And that goes all the way back to the beginning and the Lost Timelines and all this kind of stuff.
But no, he didn't. Instead, he shot somebody else. So it's like, ooh, I'm surprised. I want to see what happens next. But, yes, no, Gail Simone, I think, is taking over X Men. There's one of, yeah, she's got one of them. Uncanny X Men, I think. And, so it's like, But it's all gonna, I, We don't know for sure, but I'm pretty damn [00:26:00] confident to say this is going to be a, there will be some level of restart here.
It feels like that's where they're heading and that's fine. And yeah, I'm fine with it too. I just, like I said, I acknowledge the comp, the complicated nature of Mr. Hickman's because that goes back to when we talk about Fantastic Four, that you have to be smart to write the Fantastic Four. Let's veer back to Ultimates.
Come on, veer back to Ultimates. We're not gonna step over old ground. I will just say in just one final little comment to Marvel, specifically. When you get around to doing the epic collections, and you start covering Hickman on Fantastic Four, and Hickman on Avengers, please do us all a favor, and, like, shuffling a deck of cards, Give us Fantastic Four issue, and then FF issue, and then Fantastic Four issue, and then FF issue.
And the same with Avengers, New Avengers, New Avengers. Because that's how they were written out, that's how you gotta read them. If you're only reading one [00:27:00] Avengers book, I'd actually like to have a conversation with somebody who only read one of Hickman's Avengers book during his time. That poor bastard's gonna be Fascinating to see what he got out of that.
Nothing. We'll talk later. Oh. Oh, okay. Right. There you go. So, back to ultimate statement. Well, I mean, back to Ultimate 'cause we're talking about Hickman, that's still the ultimate 'cause. That's what, that's why I'm hoping. That's right. Yeah. That where I'm kind of hoping that as much as I love this Spider-Man, I hope that when Hickman is done, they cancel a whole damn line.
Yeah. I mean that, that's what I want because it'll devolve into something that Marvel will eventually cancel. Because right they have been opposed to spider man Mary Jane marriage Kids, you know, once again, we got Satan floating around to keep them from ever getting married and all of that so I Think that may have been Shifted though.
I mean over time because people [00:28:00] complain about it so much, right? But The beauty of this ultimate spider man, I think it was brilliant they've been Caught on to something. It's it was Hey the readers of this want to identify with spider man, right? Back when spider man came out those readers were kids so kids identified with I could be Spider Man, and now the primary readers of this are grown ups with kids and families.
But they weren't around for the 1960 61? Yeah, but they grew up with the, they still grew up with like the kid Spider No, I know, but what I'm saying is that being able to, it's almost like a what if story. What if Spider Man got his powers later in life? And that's this, I hope it catches, I mean, hey, if Spider Girl could get longevity out of a what if story, then this [00:29:00] should as well.
And I agree with Jason where the, you know, the kids back then are now old and married, but. old and married the first time that Pete and Mary Jane got married. And I enjoyed Tom McFarland drawing her in all of her little lingerie things. And then about the time I was getting divorced was when Satan decided that they weren't married again.
So, I mean, that's the, they're always going to go back to what we want to entice the younger, Readers. Right. Screw that, the younger readers don't have their own money. And this generation coming up very much don't have their own money. But that's the generational problem with comics, is that People still fundamentally think it's for kids. Yeah, well, yeah. There are statistics that probably show that while kids, and I don't know what age group we decide are kids do read comics but there are more, I see more people with the same color hair that I have on my head right now in this shop buying stuff.
Then I do some kid rolling up [00:30:00] with a skateboard and And bag of jelly beans that just got done at Just got done at Middle School Dance. Come by their latest copy of American Flag. They sure didn't no, they, that, no we have seen that kid. But they're not jelly beans. They're those What is it?
THC, gummies, whatever, big bag of gummies. That's the new thing. We should be comic shop slash dispensary. Yeah, why? They legalized it in Texas. Actually, that might work because we won't be able to sell the same issues to customers. Did I get this before? Nope. Have this one, then come back. But as someone now who's, you know, closer to retirement age than he was the first time Mary Jane and Pete got married, Watching Pete interact with his kids about, you know, because we're all parents./
