Untitled project from SquadCast
===
[00:00:00] Welcome to the multi-verse podcast. On this episode. Comic talk
Final crisis if you go on. I love this so much. It's so great. Go on YouTube. There's a video of Grant Morrison interviewing Clive Barker and Clive Barker kind of interviewing Grant Morrison in front of an audience, and he's talking about Final crisis and, and I think Barker makes some comment about, you know, how did you kind of keep all this to going, you know, because Final crisis is, is is quite a, quite a thing.
And Morrison says, well, I actually had to draw a map to kind of keep track of everything going on. And Barker's like, you, you, you did a map , you you, you could've included that map with the book . That would've been very helpful, you know, and Morrison takes it very well. [00:01:00] But I'm watching this, I'm like, there was a map , I.
I want that map. . No, I need that map. But you, but you don't know if that map's gonna do any good? No, I don't because, you know, I don't of someone I don't want to take directions from is a shroom up Shaman Scottish. Yeah. Grant Morrison punk rock. Love him for what he is. But that would. I'm just . It was a map on the map.
My Morrison experiences are so hit, hit or miss. Like his j l a start was just one of my favorite j l a sets of stories ever. There's a, like a sorcerer stone thing you did for a minute. Oh yeah. The key and, yeah. Yeah. And then the the Tower of Babel was, that was more quite, Are you sure?
Yes. Yeah. Where? Where Batman has all their, it was Mark Wade. Mark Wade, where Batman had all the ways to defeat him. No. Morrison was off the book and Wade stepped in and did, did that story. Yeah. And that's . [00:02:00] I, I've, I've not actually read Morrison's Justice. Legg Run. Never had no, had no, he had some cool stuff.
He had like this fallen angel thing. Yeah. I did have like a, well, he, he, he, the Haztech guy, well he found, he found a way to use a hawk man. 'cause he couldn't use Hawkman. So he created his own hawk Man. How couldn't use Hawkman. There was something going on with, you know, he died, Hawkman had died. Hawk World or something that, yeah, there was some, well, it was after that, but there was some reason he couldn't use Hawkman, couldn't use Hawk Girl.
He created that charact. I, I will tell you about the Morrison around Justice League. He for all the stuff he's got going on. He found Wally and Kyle's voice when they worked together and there was something, when I look at those characters, that's what I remember is how I. Those two interact. Mark Wade started it.
Mm-hmm. where they were supposed to be like, Hey, we're the Bee Gees and we're working with the Beatles, and they're supposed to be in awe of all these and, and, and Wally a little less. 'cause Wally's like, I grew up with these guys. This isn't that big of a deal. Wait a minute. The Bee Gees working with [00:03:00] the, well, like the, be like, like the Cadillac, like the Sergeant Peppers movie, just with Frank.
'cause that's not good, Scott. I mean that's really the two disco bee. Gee, were Wally and. You know, Kyle and, yeah. No, it's, they didn't feel like they were up to snuff to hang out with the big guys. Right. But Grant found, and Grant found a very unique voice, the dynamic between Wonder Woman and Aquaman. Oh, okay.
Because there was a, I'm royalty in your royalty, but you don't acknowledge that I run . 80% of the surface world, and there was just some fun in there subtly. That was it. It's worth, it's worth a hop. I I would, I'd give it a go. And, and he gives them, he gives a menace to Batman. Yeah, he does. Marson does good.
Batman. And, and because there, there's some things where there's some mystery in the first four about who are these superpowers that show super beings that show up and Batman's like, Know who this is and just disappears. Like basically leaves his buddies to [00:04:00] solve the problem like you do. Yeah. But so you had a second question from our first part.
I do. Huh? I do. I do. Did you say hold up or? Yeah, a follow up. I'll follow up. Okay. So, this being a part two. Okay. Yeah. Ish. Sure. Ish. Part two-ish. We're still sitting here drinking, so we're still Yeah, exactly. Well, they are. So we, we've had this . A very, very good conversation about the book that we would most like to revisit for the first time.
Mm-hmm. . So I'm gonna give you the, the mirror universe version of that question. Hmm. What series would you not want to revisit? And why now don't take this as to say, I wish I could erase the memory of reading. 'cause we've all got at least one or two. What? Chuck Austin's expert. Yeah. Chuck Austin's expert comes immediately to mind.
No, it's, you want to just leave it alone? I, I don't wanna read that for the first time. I'm, I would not want to go back to that. For whatever reason, we [00:05:00] kind of touched upon this when we talked about killing joke. Okay. Because as I, as I said, you know Wow. When I read it and then rereading it later, like, no, I kind of wish I'd never reread that.
I kind of wish I'd never that. So it's basically I want to, I wanna leave the emotional experience where it is and I, where was, and I might be nervous if I touch it again. Yeah. That's interesting. I don't need to come back to it. I was, I was, I started to hear it differently. I was like, I could have done without reading that I, that could be another con that could be question three.
I I have one that comes right off the top of the list. Go on. Walt Simonson Thor. Okay. Why is that? Because at the time that that showed up, that was unlike any Thor that was going on. And even, even though he, you know, he did the writing in the artistry for a long time and then Sal had to Shelton finish up right.
From start to finish with the win winter casket. And they've [00:06:00] marvelous farmed quite a bit out of that from the movies. Yes. Oh yeah. The second time I read it, it was about 10 years later, I, I noticed it didn't grab me. I still love the art, but there was already some other things going on before that
Pulled a little shine away from me that it was the heroes reborn stuff was coming up and Thor . So I have repurchased three different sets of the Thor. You know, I got the original trades that are beaten, you know, that, that you thumb through, but that sir, sitting down, I want to, I wish I could leave that on the shelf in 19 85, 86, Scott, I never touched it again because the, the, the anticipation of every issue, the enjoyment of, you know, the execution.
Number two m sixteens mowing people down mm-hmm. the dynamics between the chra, which we haven't seen in the Marvel universe really yet. [00:07:00] And Thor and Hella all of that was, was great. Walt had such a great sense of the mythology. Yes. I. And I was a huge mythology fan. Yep. But I don't know how well it ages anymore.
Right. Okay. And my follow up mm-hmm. is what he, you know, he and his wife's run an X Factor. Right. Because that was a little different. That was during that dijo disjointed time where Claremont, was he part of the X-Men? Was he work, you know, and, and they, that's how we got. You know, arch Angel slash death and all of that.
Mm-hmm. , that was great. Kind of cool then. But as issues have come in here and I've thumbed through it, I have to stop myself. It's like, look, I kinda like this too much. Right? And this, this is, this, this is, this is reading like, and that comics are for 10 year olds. So it wasn't as, I, I don't wanna lose [00:08:00] that feeling.
Right. So there that was. Yep, yep. No, I got that. You said, well, this one's I think there's a, there's a storyline that just caught me when, like at the, I was at the right age to read that story. Okay. I don't think I would read it the same way. And I kind of like where it was the, the original Tim Drake, Robin Miniseries?
Yes. Okay. So, which was a big hit. It was a big hit at the time. Came right off of the book that I, books I just talked about. So, and, and he, and you've talked about he's really your robin? He's my Robin for sure. He is my Robin. Even though they're screwing with him now, he, he was my robin. But, but that, that robin then, that Robin then was, was my Robin and he he did, I was just captivated, captivated for exactly the reasons that they, that Robin was created in the first place.
Oh, here's a kid. It's about my age. Mm-hmm. , right? And man, look at these adventures. He's on a [00:09:00] private plane. He's flying off to all these crazy places. I wish I could fly to some crazy places like that. So I was, it really did its job of, of creating a character. I, I identified with really well, and I had a lot of respect for Tim Drake as a Robin because he earned his place as Robin.
Right. He he figured out who Batman was. Mm-hmm. . And he is the only one that still, yeah. He's the only one that's figured out who Batman is. So I I remember reading that and thinking that this is the thing. If I were to reread it now, I don't think it would have the same sort of sort of impact. I still remember that.
Like when he's training with Shiva, when he's, you know, the final fight with King Snake. All that is just still greatness to me. And, and what I remember of it, he was just good enough to run around with Batman, but he was getting his ass kicked by professionals. I mean, you, it felt like a very real training session.
Oh yeah. He was, he was having to learn and he, he was smart [00:10:00] and he was, you know, smarter than Dick. Yeah. And carry on. Yeah. Well, and he had to use that. Yeah. Like he couldn't, he couldn't beat King State in a fair snake in a fair fight. And, and so he figured out a way to trick him and, and Tom Lyle's art at the time.
That was just great. Great. And clean. Very simple. And a side cake whose parents didn't die. . Thank you. Well, yes. Thank you for this yet. Well, yes, this is true. But at the time. At the time, absolutely. Like, I don't know why they couldn't have left that alone, but at the time, the sidekick whose parents hadn't died, that seemed pretty great to me.
Right. You, you don't know if Bruce had an open contract. It's like, all right, man. Okay. It's been a minute. Go and take care of the parents. Well, I gotta have a little more, I. Yeah, I gotta have a, but then they come, hi the tiger. But then they come to Damian, the hi of the Tiger , you, they hitman comes to Damien saying, well, you're his dad.
Ah, well we're not doing that. You know, I'm his dad. He can't whack me. That's if you can whack. I loved my lesson. If you can whack, if you can whack his mom, great [00:11:00] job. But most people can't. So, so they killed Alfred instead? Yeah. The kid's trying to kill him all the time. Yeah. Like every, every other storyline is Oh, Damien's fighting Batman again.
Great. Can we, can we just. One last time. I do love Damian though. I I do love the arrogance on display with Damien, especially when he's with Dick Grayson. I love that. Yeah. Sorry, I get that. I, I can see that I, of all the possible Robbins, I think Tim Drake is the, Hey, I was discussing this with my kid, with my daughter the other day.
She was like, yeah, but Dick Grayson is still the greatest. Robin. I said, Dick Grayson was a great Robin, but I don't even leave him in a discussion anymore. He's a better night wing. He's better as night wing than he ever was as Robin. He's way more entertaining, so he gets pulled outta the discussion 'cause he's night wing now.
So let's talk about the actual remaining robins after that. I, I remember that meeting series fondly and I could see why you would wanna leave that on the shelf. Yeah. It stays right where it [00:12:00] is. Do you have a close one? No, that's it. That's all I can think. That's it. Well, I have, I have one that Well, another time we'll discuss the one we'd never like, we're like, yeah, I, I wish I hadn't probably that I wish I hadn't wasted my time on.
It's one of your favorites. Oh, is it? This is Watchmen Uhuh. Oh, well that one too, but I, no burn Superman. Oh, man of steel. Yeah. I don't, I don't like that Superman. I don't like a de powered Superman that works for a. Broadcast TV station. It wasn't work on broadcast TV station. Did he work for like w No, he's David Planet.
That's you're thinking. But I, I get once get in and we've talked. We'll talk again about Yeah. Why I grab. 'cause I think there's a time when you discover a certain hero that that becomes, you're like, that's my first Spider-Man. That's my first Star Trek this, that was my first Subaru burn. Right. Right. But, alright, well this went really quick, so we'll go back around because we [00:13:00] choice.
Oh, I haven't started talking yet, so, yeah, I was gonna say, let's come back around. Here we go. So I'm gonna do the the runner up first. Okay. Okay. So the runner up is Garth Ennis's, run on Hellblazer because I recently discovered why it is that I've been so reluctant to reread that. Because DC put out, I've got all the issues and DC and I loved Hellblazer.
I mean, you know, from the first issue on Jamie Ano and John Ridgeway. I mean, I just, that was, oh, I love this stuff. Ah, anyway is it because of the trench coat? It's many things. It's, you know, it's, it's that character. I mean, it's. It's, I really struggle with Constantine in in anything at this point because it's like, no, he was, he was the, the, he was deep throat, you know, he was, he was the [00:14:00] shadowy man.
He was the, the, the enigma. He was sting literally, literally. And then now, I mean, certainly new 52. Oh, somebody deserves a kick in the teeth for putting him in the Justice League . And he's, he's doing magical spells and all this kind of stuff, and it's just like, no, this is this. He was, he know when, when John Lennon is, is singing about the working class hero.
I mean, this is, this is it. You know, he, he's the guy . Who, I'm not being your working class hero. I'm gonna do, you know, two fingers to you and I'm gonna go do my own thing. And I love that character. So what happened was I re I've reread Ennis's run many, many times around about the time that it came out.
And I loved it. I did not care for the 'cause he left and I think Paul Jenkins went on the book for a while. And then he came back and did a little five [00:15:00] issue story called, I think son of man. I didn't care for that. But the Ennis run where that begins with the, the lung cancer story right the way through to r the gates of hell.
I absolutely loved it. And, and following that on a monthly basis. Was just so painful because there are moments in that, I dunno if you gentlemen are familiar with that. I'm not. There are moments in that, in that run where it's, it's just, oh, it can't get any more wor it can't get any worse than this. Oh.
And then it does, and it's so inventive. It just how horrible things can, can get. So here's the thing though, but I've kind of been like, I don't, you know, the, the DC brought out the omnibus. And I was gonna get it. And I, and I was in the store and it's there, it's actually still in the store. Another store that I, I've seen it in and I walk past it every time and think, shit, no, I just, there's some invisible hand pulling it away.
[00:16:00] I read an interview Garth Ennis recently, and he talked about John Constantine and that that is a character that he, he actually grew to loathe. And that's why he has no interest in ever going back and doing another Hellblazer series because not at the time, but afterwards on reflection of that run, he realizes that there, there really is nothing heroic about John Stein.
This is a guy who has used all of his friends, all of his loved ones as personal shields. Yeah. He's got that righteous thing where, . Yeah. I've had to sacrifice my friends, but it's for a, for a greater good. But I can't quote Ennis, but, but I, I thought, no, that's it. But he's never come. He's a smart man. He's never come up with a plan [00:17:00] that would either put himself in harm's way or he's always goes the easy route if my friends have to die, well, You know, that's what you get for walking around with something with a guy like me.
But that actually is a terrible, terrible way of looking at it. It it truly is. So you kind of realize it's like, actually, yeah, I don't, I don't, he, he really is a bastard. He really is. And there's a romanticism to it. And, and you know, there is this, there is some, some good in in him. But it's not enough. He doesn't take the time to at least try and save his friends.
And the worst part of it is he convinces himself that Yes, he does. So he'll have his, you know, alcoholism. I tried to save my friend, actually. No, you didn't. You just kind of threw them under the bus and went on with the rest of your life. [00:18:00] And I, I don't know, . Constantine and I, and, and, and, you know, nobody does except for Moore.
I, I, I heard more reckon he bumped into him in a bar once. Hmm. But have you ever known someone who actually thinks of themselves as a reasonably good per I, I have. I, I knew one, one person immediately comes to mind on this, who actually considers himself to be quite a good person, but he's not, and he has effed over.
Friends, family, time and time again. Come on. That it, and you just, you, you and I have traveled different career paths. Yeah. So, you know, from my previous employer before the college. Yeah. Everyone's laughing. It, it was rent to own, but I won't get us sued by mentioning the name. Right. Yeah, met several.
The one person that you and I might've known that might've been a part of the ownership. Right. I think also thinks that [00:19:00] right? Yes. Yeah. I mean they Oh yeah. Everything and yeah. And not knowing the source materials well because I, I've got like the first 10 issues of hell of Hellraiser and my enjoyment of the character came from Swamp Thing.
Al Moore did that. Yes. And I'll also say Matt Ryan's portrayal. In the, got the accent, right? Yeah. Yeah. When we got the, you know, when he got his own series on a, B, C, CW stuff was fun, but it wasn't the same one. And then they were nice enough to let him voice the character in the animated universe's.
And I think they got that pretty close for animated. You can't, the voice. Sure. Well, well they, the boys, well they came back with a story where, you know, he's having to deal with . Two of his friends, he screwed over. It was a separate J JM DiUS wrote. Okay. Wrote that was a single, and that came as close to, I think, the source materials you could get away with, with what you were doing.
And at that time [00:20:00] in Vertigo, there weren't I, I think there were times they were trying not to have a redeemable . Kinda like you had Lobo, there was nothing Right. Dealing I, but it also, I'm curious if it hit, you know, it might have hit you differently, single guy versus married with kids and things had gone on in your personal life maybe where you can't read that story anymore 'cause you're like had a John Constant, I had a John like that did that to me five years ago and, and I kinda like that Garth
Dislikes the character. Yeah. I, I think that's that because, almost, because almost you did your job because there was nothing, even when Alan Moore created him, he was known in the magic community. And I remember books of magic, how loathed he was when he walked into that inter That's right. Bar. And so I think it's if, if you, if you take that and follow it, all that thread all the way to the end, [00:21:00] and the writer's like, fuck this guy.
You did your job. Yeah, you really did. Because I, I, I never, I never wanted to see a, a, as someone reading, I never wanted to see Constantine show up to help in a fight. Because if you're showing up one, something else had gone really wrong and why couldn't I get ahold of Dr. Exactly. I'll, that's exactly it.
I'll take the demon. Yes. God says, absolutely. I'll, I'll put up with the rhymes. No. If, if Constantine shows up, run. Yeah, yeah. There's something, he might zap the guy and there might, but there's, you know, what finger am I gonna be missing? That's it. Because he needs that for that spell over there. Yeah. So I think.
I'm, I'm really happy there's someone that didn't really follow it all the way the end. I mean, I have, I have the lung cancer storyline. Mm-hmm. , but that also kind of hit close to home at the time where I didn't really wanna read. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That was like, ah, Doug, I've got 'em. 'cause I was also guy that showed up at the end of Preacher, I'll get it at the end and I'll go backwards.
And it didn't get [00:22:00] to, didn't get to do. Right. And when Vertigo was kind of shrinking, that was, yeah, that was me. And we should bring Vertigo back, by the way. Yeah. They not black, not black label, not. Vertigo. Bring back Karen Berger please. And show on. But that, but that is fascinating 'cause you know, I know there was a discussion you and I had about him and at some point there were you identified as kind of that lone wolfer.
Not, you know, there was, there was something, the trench coat, mob or something you touched on? Yeah, I I I think teenagers over there were all wearing trench coats. No, no, no. They weren't . They, they, they really, really weren't. I, I did, but no. And I think all of us dressed like our hero a little bit, but then it's like, I can't keep.
Well, I tell you, I, I tell you and, and, and we're wildly digressing, but at the same time, I'm sort of thinking about things I haven't considered in a long time because we'll get to, we'll get to number one here in a minute. We'll get to number one in a minute. Oh, number one will be over in 30 seconds. Yeah.
Is the, the reasons why I really like that character when I was [00:23:00] young. A kind of part parcel of the reasons why I can't stand him now, because this is a guy when you are young and you feel alone. , you, you kind of look towards survivors. And Constantine is a character, certainly in the first 40 issues that Jamie Alano wrote there.
There was a Grant Morrison break. There was Neil Gaman break, actually talk about another podcast that a single issue story. 'cause nobody really does single issue stories. I know. My favorite single issue story for sure. Yeah. That Neil Game and Dave McKean story in Hellblazer Hold me is amazing. That is such a chilling story, but we'll, we'll, we'll come back to that.
Okay. It's, he's a survivor, so you kind of like, oh, I, I, I, I feel vulnerable, so I, I wish I had a hard outside shell. And then it's only until later that you sort of realize that Yeah. The reason why he's got that hard out outside shell is because everything inside of him is pushed up to make the [00:24:00] shell.
He's got nothing inside, so that's why new 52. When you see him paling around with, you know, the Justice League, even Justice League Dark. The reality is every single one of those characters sat tanner and wonder Woman and think, well, sex , text Chiba could see them having a few drinks, but like he's gonna pop up, I think in an issue of Superman.
Yeah, like the next issue of Superman, he's gonna pop in there. Nobody would want to be in the physical presence of this guy. Like I I. No, you are the guy who's got all your friends murdered. You are alone, followed around by ghosts. There's nothing noble to you. You got all of your friends killed, and if you're stupid enough to become friends with you now you're probably gonna die.
I, I remember there was some . I don't remember which issue is where we're dead, man. Wanted nothing. If you, if you're someone who Boston brand wants nothing to do, you're in trouble. That's you. You're in serious trouble.[00:25:00] And there's a, there's a parody element to that character as well. Let's just see how bad we can actually, you know, when Yeah.
I, anyway, but it's, I actually kind of, I really like Garth Ennis as a writer. I think he's quite brilliant. Mm-hmm. , but. Over the years, I kind of realized, 'cause this, this, this was the penny drop for me, was reading this in this interview. Like, oh yeah, that's, that's it. This is a despicable. There is nothing Once you get it, I've got it.
I don't need to revisit this. I think some people canceled Garth thinness for some reason, like he got canceled. I don't know why. Well, garni doesn't like superheroes. Oh, he really doesn't like superheroes. No. He got can like, I'm pretty sure he got canceled for some sort of shenanigans. But t yeah, I don't, I aware of don't cancel people just in general.
I still listen to Michael Jackson, so what it's, I mean, [00:26:00] but he's canceled, but he also dead, so, I mean, there's, you know, that's true. That's true. Yeah. But that's, you know, preacher ends as, as crazy and vile, and twisted and demented. As Preacher ends. Preacher ends, Jesse Custer is actually a hero. He, he and he rides off into the sunset and he deserves to ride off into the sunset after everything he's been through.
And it's quite an emotional thing. At the end of re of the gates of Hell, Constantine has his final achievement over the, the, the first of the fall. There's no well done son. You survived. It's. , I hope you can live with yourself. Most people would not be able to do, you killed everybody. So anyway, so that's, that's one that I'm actually, I kind of realized now, like, no, you know what?
I loved it at the time and I'm just gonna leave it in that box. Mm-hmm. with younger Steven and trying to figure out life. [00:27:00] Because I, I was still living in the UK for, for a good chunk of it. And there you go. Char characters like that. PE actually the people like that. Mm-hmm. , right? Yeah. That we were discussing earlier.
There's a, there's a trait that I actually talk about with my kids a bunch that I think Constantine has. Okay. Where he's, he kind of has a, oh, well, these things are out my control, so, so be it. Right. So like, so the rules don't apply. Yeah. It's, it's a lack of agency. Yeah. Meaning I don't, I'm not in control of the situation, so there's nothing I can do.
Right. Instead of like the heroes that would, you know, sacrifice, they look at the problem differently. They do whatever. Yeah. They realize there is something you, you can do and just about any situation, it's up to you to make the call. Right. And that lack of agency drives me nuts in, in like human beings, so, and.
It's that, and then a failure to take responsibility to some [00:28:00] extent. Now, I don't think Constantine has that. Like he's, he feels guilty, I guess he gets followed by the ghost. He's he feels guilty. Alcoholism maybe. Yeah. Yeah, he does. But, but you, you, I think what you just said is, is, is bang on. Yeah. Because the thing is Constantine is outta my control and everything.
No, that's the thing. It's his refusal to . admit to himself that he, not only is he in control mm-hmm. , but it was necessary for the plan that he came up with, that it was gonna go down that road. Yeah. And it's kind of like, you know, it's the, it's the Bogart line from Casablanca. I don't mind a parasite, I object to a cut rate one
And it's, that's the kind of, that's what it is, is that at the end of the day, For all of his, oh, woe is me and I'm a busted and no one loves me and I don't deserve love. 'cause I walk the dark path and all this sort of stuff. It's like, no, this is all shit. You are, you are basically just trying to, you are, you know, you're, you're [00:29:00] intoxicating yourself and you don't even need alcohol for it.
Mm-hmm. , you're quite happy to do it with your own ability for, for self drama really. Yeah. Who caress. Hmm. You know? But that's it. It's, that's the agency thing. That's that, that is it. It's that if he was a runaway reckless train, yeah. At least then you could go, yeah. Okay. He really doesn't know what he's doing.
No. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's just managed to convince himself and the rest of the world that. No, you know, I'm just doing the best I can. You know, I'm, yeah, I'm a working class guy. You know, mom died during childbirth. I mean, the odds were against me. No, screw all of that. You're incredibly intelligent and wildly resourceful, and the best plans that you can come up with for some reason always entail you getting out of it with the.
With the smallest amount of damage and misery, but God help anybody who went into that room with you. Right. And [00:30:00] yeah, I've, I've known people who, you know, they really consider themselves to be good people and it's like no. And the saddest part is you can never convince them. You are never gonna be able to show them the truth about themselves.
Everyone's the hero in their own story. Exactly. So the only thing you can do is just say, you know what? I'm gonna let you go because I like you, very fond of you, but you're a dumpster fire on a runaway train in the middle of a tornado, and man, I just don't need that in my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's true.
What was your number one doctor? Not returns. Oh, all right. Because I thought we were gonna revisit that though. Whoa. Not by choice, not by choice. I need to reread it. Maybe you and I will be revisiting it. That and Steven can moderate. Because I loved it. It was Wow. Batman, he's really [00:31:00] Batman and , you know, I mean he's, he doesn't get any more Batman than this.
Batman. He's really Frank Miller. He's really, yeah, exactly. But the, no, because it's very much a product of its time. The eighties were, was an interesting decade, and I was, I had things I loved about it, things I did not like. I'm kind of happy to just leave that one in the eighties. I, I could see that because I, I like Watchmen because I, I remember the first time I picked it up.
Mm-hmm. , it's very Frank Miller. Mm-hmm. . It's, and I think the testament to that is that when. , he finally decided to write a sequel. . We all read That was a crazy law. . Yeah. Yeah. We all, we, we all read. It went, oh crap. Why? What is this? Yeah. What's happen? What's happening? And then you go back and reread the other one and you're like, oh, it's not horrible, but it's, yeah.
It's just, [00:32:00] and and then the third one was even, yeah. You got Frank Miller with. Brian pulled Brian re doing his absolute best. Like we can make this cohesive , you know. But, but Dark Knight did have a very cool feeling when you touched it the first time. Oh yeah. The Batmobile, when you listening to listening to Bruce narrate, well, Dick used to call it the Batmobile, and that's just what a kid would call it.
And I was like, yeah, that's a tank of bends. Oh, it's, it's bends around corners and it's got some, and. Brilliant moments. Tahoe, God, silver is still my favorite Ollie moment, I think. And the, no, this is a, you know, this is a table. I'm a surgeon when he's gonna, I go to work on the knee , you know, and it's just like, he is so Batman, you know, it's called Damn Batman, which we've, you know, was a later thing, but yeah.
Well, my first time to read this thing was in like a leather bound. [00:33:00] Premier Mirror Edition or something. Right? Yeah, I remember that one. Yeah. And I was, I just thought it was the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. I got that at Walden Books as the gold, the Batman on the cover Guard ads. Yes, yes. I still have that version.
I, you know, somebody wants to get into comic. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, it is a bit dated, but I would still recommend it. Like, no, no, you should. Everybody's, if you want to feel like you're reading the, the, the cream of the crop here, you should give dog returns a go. Tangible comment on that. When DC did the animated version of it, they did pretty good.
I still haven't watched it. Now the, you know, the, I've got it. The, the people they got to do, you know, I got Peter Weller playing old Batman. That's great. The guy from Lost, that's and he was on a person of interest playing the Joker. It matches and they kept to the store pretty good. Oh yeah. And also when they did year one, that also stuck pretty close.[00:34:00]
Felt like it. Yes. Did. I saw because, because because they gamble anytime they do a man, I forgot it by year one. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good idea. But year one was a big deal to me. Yeah. Creating, but that's the thing, actually, I, I slip, sorry. I, I love year one. I think year one is the superior admin straight.
And I reread that every few years. I can pick that one up. I'll move around my bookshelf. And year one gets moved around and it'll be like, oh, year one. Forget. And before I not, I'm reading the damn thing. It's just good. It's a good story. But I can, I can see why you picked Dark Knight. Yeah. 'cause I, 17 year old Scott really, really dug that.
Yeah. Well, . So did you watch on Max, they have the they have like a DC documentary mm-hmm. ? Yes. Yes. Almost like a hero. I don't know what it's called. It's a three parter, I think, or two part, yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So they, they talk about how important Dark Knight was during that time, right. And they talk about, you know, and they have the political, you know, the bad guy [00:35:00] stuff with, with Reagan, and I was like, oh, wait a second.
Because I always had very positive thoughts about Reagan. I thought Reagan was great, and I read that Now at the time, I. Very differently. Sure. So like, Reagan was supposed to be like this, this bad voice on there. And I always saw him as like the positive thing. Yeah. So now I have to go back and reread and see like how tainted my perspective was.
Oh, it's, it's, it's an absolute lampoon of, of Reagan . Well, you know, and, and turns out they're awful sore losers as the nuclear missile is heading towards the island. Man, I just thought that was great. Oh, I was like, perfect. Just make that happen. No, I've gotta go reread this just to. Because I, when I watched that documentary, I was like, oh, I know for sure I read that completely the opposite, whatever it was.
Well, and, and when, and to me it all, it kind of comes across, you know, not like he's, it was just a comment on a political, on a political president period, because at the time, Reagan shouldn't have been alive. [00:36:00] And , you know, you shouldn't have been alive. And they act fact, the Nancy Place, can you flesh that one out because you, you didn't get people scratching their heads like, what is he saying?
Well, okay, so, you know, fat ass should, he'd be dead. Yeah. I mean, if, if 1985 or 1980s was when Reagan was president, right. Okay. Batman at age 70 shouldn't have been Reagan. Reagan was slick. You know that. And they go back in the second Batman and try to, or second Dar not try to explain that. And I, they could just left that alone.
Yeah. But. Yeah, it was definitely Frank Miller making a very pointed political statement, America in the eighties. Absolutely. And you know, it, it's, it's, it's tough, you know, 40 years later when you go back and try to look at a, some president's track record because at the time in the eighties people were, you know, a little more amped up and involved in, and then they come back and you're like, ah, ooh, maybe that hadn't have been
The, yeah, the best. [00:37:00] The, the, but he also doesn't go on down any policy. No. It is just Reagan's there. And I love, I love that super version of Superman in there, because at that time, burner, Superman had come out. But Clark is preaching to Bruce. Like, do you remember why we threw you a party when you retired?
Do you remember? I, I don't wanna be doing any of this, but I'm doing this so they don't come and kill all of y'all. You selfish ass. Right. Stop, you know, stop having fun. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's about Bruce coming outta retirement and having fun. Yes. Doing everything. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was, no, but it's, he's, but, but that's not what this, it's, it's, it's, it's that don't even, that's not what this is about.
This is about said No, no, no, no. It's just, no, we, we talk, it's what we do. But it's like, it's not Batman. , it's Frank Miller's Batman. Yeah, and you really need to keep that in mind because Frank Miller's Batman is something other than [00:38:00] the usual expectation as to what a Batman should be. I mean, he's someone kind of crazy , someone that worked for DC that we all crossed paths with lives around here one time, said that the reason why
Dark Knight is held in such high regard is that it was the number one selling Batman story back then. Yeah. That there are better Batman stories. Yes. It was definitely one of the early prestige formats. Yep. One of the early trade paperbacks. Yep. All that, all that trade paperback just sold. Yeah. I couldn't, yeah, you couldn't find that.
Yeah. Yeah. And he always alluded to that. It, it very similar. 'cause once you, once we started talking about killing Joe Cala Allen Moore's like, nah, it's just a story. Yeah. That Frank was kinda like, yeah, it's my Batman's story and nah, it shouldn't have been that, you know, I'll take the check. Right.
You know, I'll, I'll you'll pay me for that. And I get, [00:39:00] but Warner Brothers remembers it because it was staggering. And, and then that, you know, then they had . And did they just come off crisis? They had that year one watchmen, all these really high selling and never regained that market share that way. No. Uh um, but that I, he's always questioned.
Is that why we consider it now? Granted, every time we have it in here, weell it, I'll get the back issues in. I'll sell Dark Knight out in a weekend. Yeah. . But I do. That always rings in my No, it's good. What? What? It's good. But what is the And different podcasts. What is the best Batman story? Oh. Oh. How much time do we got
Yeah. That's what we, we have, we have to do research. Have I have a perspective on the best Batman story? I, I do have one that's my favorite. Well, I have my favorite. I don't know if it's the best. Well, there you go. That'll be the show. It's the best to me. Mm-hmm. , what's, what's best and what's, and that's, and that, and that's all.
It should matter. Right. But what is it? You [00:40:00] wanna say it or you wanna hold on to it? Mine is hush. Okay. My favorite. I, because well, the combo of writing and art is so extraordinary to me. And, and Jim Lee golly, he is just, he's still my, my Batman artist and my Superman artist. And, you know, I picked up, we have the
The foil covers. Mm-hmm. . Oh yeah. Just came out the Superman, what is it? 2 0 4. 2 0 8. 2 0 5. Something like that. Something like that. Anyway, Brian, it's covered. Yeah. And then there's a, it has like a mirror cover, mirror image. It's the Batman, it's the bookshelf, right? Bookends. So those we have those foils and that Superman image by Jim Lee's still my favorite.
And the Batman image that goes with it, I just adore. So. Having him do the interiors of a book. Mm-hmm. that book. Right. Just blew my mind. I've got like every version. I ultimately ended up with the, like, the really nice, [00:41:00] absolute like slick cover. Yep. High end edition. I ended up with that thing and then I read the thing like, you shouldn't do , and I tore the little dust jacket a little bit and I'm bothered by it, but it's, I mean, it's the one that gets the most flavor.
So yeah, it's my favorite. I'd love it. I'd have to hunt. I really would. I'd just research now off the top of my head, and I don't remember any of the creators. I don't remember any of the artists on it, but there's a story where Batman in Santa Claus. A real Santa Claus loving it already cross cross paths and they've reprinted it in the treasury editions and where this whole time Batman's just sure that this guy is a Santa dressed, you know, just a mall Santa running around with him.
And it's seventies. It's seventies kitch. It's it, but there's this, he helps the, helps the person. He's supposed to help. [00:42:00] Batman turns around and Santa's gone, and Batman kind of looks at everyone and just kinda winks. And there, there was just something very, you know, wholesome And and, and there's, I'm a Batman fan, so those, there's 50 or 60 stories I love to revisit year one, all that.
But that one, . Hey man. Batman was running around with Superman, or Batman was running around with Santa Claus. Superman Running around Santa Claus doesn't, doesn't fascinate me as much because they should, they should all know each other. The Easter bunny knows Superman, but doesn't know Batman. That's, that's where it's, have you seen the, the Christmas card covers that are coming out?
I, one old fan I've seen. Me too. There were a bunch of people online that were like, it's 7 9 9, nobody's gonna cut off the cover of this thing. And I was like, Well, if you go to Hallmark, oh, you pay 5, 9, 9 for a card all the time. I don't know. Warner Brothers, if you're listening, box those things up as a Christmas card.
Done. Knows that [00:43:00] man. Yes. They got, they got my name on them. Every, every, every friend of mine that if I was sending Christmas cards out, they'd be like, oh, this is card from Scott. They wouldn't even be surprised. I'd stock up. Yeah, I, I'm, this will be my Christmas card and I'll, I may take the images. Send 'em to the print shop and say, print these bad boys.
I'll keep track. Let's see. Yeah, Scott got the Batman one last year, so I'll give him the Superman one this year because I don't want people to get the same card year over year because I'm gonna stockpile these damn things. Yeah, yeah. Favorite Batman story or the best? Yeah, just, okay. Now I can't do the best 'cause best would be year one, but favorite Batman story.
Mm-hmm. . It would have to be my first real . The first time I actually experienced Batman Power Records 19, 19 75. Oh, my stacked cards. Neil Adams. Okay, now that I've got it and I still, I [00:44:00] still, yeah, it's, I knew Batman from the Adam West TV show. Yeah, it's fun. It's camp, it's silly, it's pow and Biff and Buff and all this kind of stuff.
So my parents have bought me this power record, which were brilliant. If you, if you around in seventies. Do you remember power records? Love it. I found my collection. Did, did, did you see the picture? I posted the other one. No, I found the collection. I, I was helping my parents 'cause they were they were putting new carpet in, so we had to move everything out.
And I found all the old records. I'll bring him a record player. All my superpowers records, bring him in. I'll bring him a record player. We'll have a, we'll, I'll bring mine. You saw mine? Oh, absolutely. I had Star Wars. Oh yeah. I had the, had the Batman Spider Spiderman. We found a box of the old show and tell.
He wants the record with the film strips. Oh, wow. Still is. So we need one of the, we need to find one of those red record players with that TV in the front. . Just sit there. . We're, we're kind of dangerously teetering into Starman. Yeah. Oh, we're, in terms of , I love stuff, but there's, there's a moment. My parents, oh, [00:45:00] little.
I mean, 1975 is when it came out. So I was three. I don't think I got this when I was three. I think I was like five or six when I got this. My parents obviously got it too. They're like, oh, Steven, what's Batman? He watched Batman TV show, Batman Power record. Yay. So I play this thing and, and I remember the feeling because there's a moment, Batman and Robin, and the, the sound is, is, is absolutely satisfactory for what they're trying to achieve.
They put a lot of effort in . They certainly did. So Batman, Robin, they're at the art museum. It's late, it's stark. There's been a break in . You've got the, the bat flashlight. Look around. There's a dead watchman on the floor. He's got that rectus grin. And I remember the feeling of like, what? People don't die.
Yep. No, not that one. Not that. Oh, that's yours. Oh, that's fine. Yeah. And it's because [00:46:00] the Joker at that point, that was the first, it's the first time I met comic book Batman. And it's the first time I met comic book Joker done properly because Cesar Romero, oh, he's a lot of fun on the TV show, but this is a joker who will kill you and leave you with a grin on his face.
And I found that chilling and unsettling. And when I think about ba, the ba, we were just talking about . It's not Batman, it's Frank Miller's Batman. My Batman, Neil Adams, Batman. And that was the moment where it was like, this is this, this is a guy, he's dressed up as a bat, he's in a dark world. There are dark things going on here.
This isn't bow and piff and Julie Newmar in the, in the catsuit, although there's a hell of a lot to be said for Julie Newmar in the cat suit, or the kit for that matter. Oh, Lee Meriweather. They, history. History lesson kids. Yeah, that's it. We're going down a totally [00:47:00] different road. It's what we do.
But we know all about your proclivities. Now. We've heard about the Julie Andrews thing. We've heard about this one. Oh, I haven't even got started on Michelle Fife yet. Totally. That is a whole nother podcast. Bat Heck, holy meow. Holy holy Hole in a donut. Batman. It's just the best burwood line delivery holy hole in a donut.
Batman, oh man. Steady old chum or whatever. So I don't wanna, was that the record they put you to sleep with? I mean, did they go, Hey, it's time to go to bed, Steven, you wanna listen to Batman? Steve is now sitting up in the bed going, oh, well, where's that? Nope, I, I remember listening to it. I remember being afraid of it.
and then picking up the courage to revisit it and still being afraid of it. And my parents have no idea that they actually bought something that, that actually disturbed me. 'cause it is disturbing and it doesn't hurt that, you know, Neil Adams is, is the guy on the art and [00:48:00] it's just, there you go. So I know with Marvel, When they cranked these out, they were reprints like the right.
Crazy, you know, the, the, that one wasn't, that's what I was gonna say. Or I, I don't have, I didn't get the DC ones growing up. My parents got me the Marvel. I've got, you know, Spiderman with the man Wolf, the, you know, re re retelling of the fantastic Fords origin, man, Wolf Captain America with Phoenix, you know?
Yeah. That ended up being Zemo kid. Mm-hmm. had all those. But the dcss, I never got any of 'em. So were, is it just that Batman that was original to that record, or were there other Batmans that were reprinted? I don't, I don't know. Have to look into that. I know, because you've got some of the bat, Jason. I know that one's an original because when DC did those hard covers, the, the co, the completely allowed Batman, if you get volume three, they actually included it Cool.
In, in, in it. And there's a little bit that says this has actually never been reprinted. I do at the comic book convention. Our friends at [00:49:00] Duncanville Books had a big pile of trade paperbacks for five bucks, and I got volumes two through six of the Batman Neil Adams for oh five bucks each. Oh man. And so, so now, 'cause I got volume one, so I'm like, oh.
Now as you said that, that's, I know what Papa Scott's gonna do when he gets home tonight. Go check it out and, and let me know what your thoughts are because it's, it's creepy. It's actually quite chilling. I, I, I spent way too much money for, oh yeah, for $5. Jason is passing his phone over with the pictures of his, you know, 33 and a third records.
And kids. That's the ones that you had to buy the little plastic ring to stick in to play, or you had to have the part that pops up. Pops up. You know, it's, For comic book geeks. These are fun little treasure troves because it was a series attempt. They had actors. Yeah, they did the different voices.
There was, I mean, there were radio shows, right? Like the, the old radio plays and, and it was, it was great [00:50:00] because Page, as I've said before, as a young comic book collector in the sixties, well seventies, I'll say seventies you felt alone and you didn't have any, Yeah, you had super friends on tv, but you didn't have serious toys to play with all.
You had the Migo line, but they didn't expand on a lot of things. No. And once they were done, they were done. But when you got these records, 'cause I remember the mm-hmm. when I heard for many years until the. Spider-Man animated series showed up. That actor doing Spider-Man, that was the voice I heard when I read the comic.
Yeah, I know exactly. He talked about same thing with the Fantastic four and then the, the, the, the sound of Johnny flaming on and you know, how they had to make sounds of read, stretching, all of that. When I read the books, those were what I superimposed. Right. And then really the fir my first exposure to
It being Act actor Accurate was the Star Wars records. Mm-hmm. , because they were just, you know, off the movie. Yeah. And those are just great little, do you remember the [00:51:00] star Wars radio show? I do. I've got all three versions. I've got Star Wars Empire and Return of the Jedi. Right. God bless Mark Hamill and Billy D for showing up for that.
Anthony showed up. Yeah. Well, mark didn't. Or someone played Luke at one point. I think Mark showed up at some point, but I think I just, I remember, but I remember getting on the AM radio and listening. I have all of those on cassette and I keep meaning to find digital copies of that. But yeah, that was quite a treat.
I remember being in my dad's car and he was fiddling with the radio and all of a sudden it was like, dad turned out. That was R G D two and it was playing . Love it. All right, gents. It's about that time. It's about that time. It's about that time. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. That's exactly lights off stools on the table.
Thank you for listening to the multi-verse podcast. If you'd like to come and join us in person at our brick and mortar store, you can do that in Hurst, Texas. If you'd like to shop with us online, you can go to www dot multi-verse [00:52:00] dot shop that's multi-verse. Dot shop as always thanks for listening
