My Song 8 (1)
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[00:00:00] You're listening to the multi-verse on this episode, we discuss the killing joke.
What stunk about this was that, you know, they got R rated. Got the original crew together, got my sister, who's read the source material, buddies that have read the source material.
We're all excited. We're going, it almost, where's it, north, is it the mall right up here? It almost looked like a Marvel movie opening night. Everyone's in there, Batman, stuff, hooping it up there. We're ready to go. Midnight showing. We sit there, and the first ten minutes, that theater gets dead quiet. Yeah.
And there really is someone that goes, what the fuck are we watching? And, and we all stood, we all sat there. Waiting for it to get better. Right. And you had to get 20 minutes into it almost before the source material showed up. Yeah, actually shows up. Yeah. And, and I remember, even my sister at one point was like, did they just call it The Killing Joke and it's, it's, is it a different movie?
Did they just steal and, and then they get [00:01:00] into it and we're all like, that was all unnecessary. It, it was. And, and came out so disappointed. Yeah. Well, and that's, that's the thought that I, believe , and what is it? The Mandela effect? when you think when a plus one people claim to have seen something, but actually, no, they haven't.
But it's sort of in the like the famous one is, That, in the shower scene in Psycho, you know, so Janet leaves in the shower, rub a dub, and in walks in Mother, and then, you know, cue the, uh, the, uh, Bernard, Human, uh, Herman, uh, strings. And, you know, 90 jump cuts later, you've got Janet Leigh laying down in the tub with blood, which is actually, Bosco, the, that chocolate syrup, you know.
It looks better in camera than, okay. And, so the Bosco is mingling with the water and it's circling the drain. And there's, if, if it's called [00:02:00] the Mandela Effect, I'm gonna have to look this up, I believe that it is. There's this thing where people think that as the blood is circling around the drain, the, an eye.
Can be seen in the drain like like there's like some kind of super Like superimposing or whatever this image of this eye, but it's not there So, for our audience, here's the official definition, you are correct. The Mandela Effect is an observed phenomenon in which a large segment of the population misremembers a significant event or shares a memory of an event that did not actually occur.
And they seem, they reference Psycho, they reference Forrest Gump. Wizard of Oz. Right. Now, of course, we're not going to deep dive into all of this. Yeah. But, yes. Okay, so. Psycho was number one. Okay, so that was the extent of my intelligence for the evening. But, going back to why I mentioned that in the first place.
Is, I've got this thing where I'm sure, and I'll have to YouTube it [00:03:00] later. That I really remember seeing an interview with Bruce Timm. Where he was explaining that they needed, there wasn't enough content in the killing joke. to cover a 90 minute movie or an 80, 80, 85 minute movie, whatever. So they had to add something to it.
And the decision was made to include this sequence where, um, and I'm going to use the parts that I used earlier. Cause I think it's funny. It's one of my favorite words, um, where Batman is stripping back girl on a roof and that that would somehow lend itself to more of a reason why. Batman is, he's gonna go and get that Joker because he just made the girl that I'm shtipping, um, uh, paraplegic.
And it's like, no, that's, if that's, if that's actually true, if that was the motivation in that, no. [00:04:00] Because apart from the fact that the first thing that goes through my mind is, is Batman grooming his sidekicks? Oh gosh. Is there an element to, I mean... Frederick Wortham would have had 31 flavors of joy over that one.
Well, here's the, here's the problem. This is, yet again, DC not understanding who their own characters are. Right. You know what his motivation is? He's freakin Batman. He's freakin Batman! That's the motivation. Yeah. Like, parents killed, long time ago. I need to stop bad guys. Oh gosh, let's dress like a bat.
That's his whole thing. That's everything he needs. He doesn't need to be intimate. I mean, that's... Okay, so... It's also his best friend. The only friend he has in the world. Yeah. Jim Gordon. That's right. They can't even be real friends. He's bat friend and he's cop friend. But his only friend in the world, it's that guy's kid.
Right. It's that guy's kid who runs [00:05:00] around with him on rooftops as a Batgirl. That's not enough motivation. And as if that wasn't bad enough, he's stripping her as well. And he knows his war disk, Dick Grayson has a, has a hots for him. I mean, that's, that's a, that's a power bat move right there. That's a power bat move.
Absolutely. Um, but that's the thing is that I think that by, and that's where the, the, the question comes in. About utilizing the voice cast from the animated series, because I think on a, on a psychological level, you can't help. But here you're hearing Kevin Conroy, you're hearing, uh, mark Hamill. I dunno if Melissa Gilbert, or was it Sarah Gilbert?
I was getting confused, which, whichever Gilbert it was who voiced back girl in the animated series, whether she did it for the killing joke. Um, I see, my spider sense tells me somebody is, uh, going to IMDb rapidly fast for a flash fact. Um, but because you hear those voices, it feels like, [00:06:00] okay, so is this an extension of that Batman animated universe?
And yeah, you're quite right, because, you know, Dick Grayson does have a thing for Barbara. But, you know. And to answer your question, Tara Strong. Tara Strong, okay. So that's, Tara Strong is the go to, when we can't get the original voice, we get Tara Strong on G. Woman of all, all trades there. Exactly. She's, she's, she's got quite the linguistic skills.
Yes. Um, but anyway, no, it's, it's train wreck and it's terrible. And, uh, it, you know, they, they're adding all this unnecessary layers. You know what's funny though, it just reminded me that, um, when Cause that, yeah, I think the book came out in 80, I think it came out in 88. But it was supposed to come out a lot earlier.
I think it was actually supposed to come out maybe even two years earlier than it did. And the [00:07:00] reason for the delay was Brian Bolland. Because old Brian is not the fastest artist in the world. So I do wonder if this might not have been... Uh, possibly a pre crisis thing. Here's my contribution, you're correct.
March 1988. March 1988, okay. So, because when asked about it, at the time, Alan Moore's opinion on the Killing Joke was, and I quote, because I can't remember where I read this, but I can definitely remember the quote, is It's, it's, it's, it's not a lot more than a Batman annual. And it's true. It is a small book.
Yeah. It's, but, but no, that was his view on this is that this is just annual, this is just like a fun little story. Yeah. Like this is not the defining work of the Joker and, and, and his conflict with Batman, which is the way it is viewed as far way it is viewed as far as Alan Moore is concerned. It's like, ah, it was a, it was a fun, it was a [00:08:00] fun special, you know, I just kind of rattled it off or, or what have you.
Um, but of course the other thing is, and I don't, I didn't watch the movie till the end. So I don't, you'll, you'll have to tell me if, if, if this is how they played it out. Um, but at the end of that story, and I've read this so many times, and it never dawned on me, they're up on the roof, the Joker tells his joke about switching the, the flashlight off, and, you know, you think I'm crazy, and they both start laughing, and the rain is still pouring.
And then the laughter just stops. And in reading that, I always just read it that, and sick as it is, Batman and the Joker, because I'm thinking this is in real world continuity, I guess Batman, he's had a long day, his best friend's been turned into a plaything, and his, and his, uh, his, one of his sidekicks, [00:09:00] She's not gonna be able to walk again.
This is an absolute horror show, and it just got the better of him that he's laughing as an emotional release. There you go. Apparently, no. Apparently, um, the reason why the laughter stops is Batman snaps the Joker's neck and kills him. I was gonna say, I know where you're going, because I remember my impression was the same as yours.
Yeah. And there was even... A... A time where we didn't know Batgirl wasn't ever, you know, it was comics, so, you know, put a chip in, um, you know. That's what she has now, she has a chip now. Dr. Fate comes in, so it took a little while. I think the Suicide Squad with the Joker cover, I mean I can't remember where it was that she showed up for.
Yeah, no, I know who you're talking about. I remember a couple years later when someone goes yeah, I really like Killing Joke cause you know, Batman finally kills the Joker. And I was like, what are you talking about? We're in there laughing, ha ha ha. And I was like, okay, so [00:10:00] explain to me why you think that.
Right. And we go through the panels and the laughter just stops. And I always took it, very similar to what you're saying, but that Batman and Joker had this relationship that, and it's a cliche that they do in writing all the time. Yeah. They, they did it with Hal and Sinestro where they are best friends because they understand each other in a way.
Friends like these. Well, but I'm not, I'm not saying they're sitting around, uh, inviting Christmas, but that whole, I, I'm Jeff Johns. I've said it over and over and when Sinestro looks at Hal and he goes, well, what were you going to ask me? And Hal goes, were we ever friends? And Sinestro says, that's the sad part, Hal.
We're always friends. We've always been friends. Right. And, you know, that, that. It's a cliche that Batman needs Joker, Joker needs Batman, um, in that universe, the great Mark Hamill doing the Batman funeral eulogy is where I tie, that's where I've always pulled my sores from, is [00:11:00] their friends, Well, it's Joker's night terror too, right?
Yes. Joker's night terror is that Batman dies. So it's a strange, it's a strange thing that exists. That you've got the killing joke. The Mandela effect. The Mandela effect. That's right. See, now you'll never forget that. But no, it's a strange thing that exists because I remember reading that when it came out.
Yes. Because I read it on a Thursday. I think it was a Thursday and the comic shop. In case you don't remember too well. I think it was a Thursday. I think it was a Thursday. I'm trying to remember what new release day was in England. Um, but, uh, the, the comic shop that I used to shop at, Fantasy Workshop in the wind.
For those of you who may know what I'm talking about. Um, we got, uh, the store got, uh, shorted copies cause that was a thing. And, uh, [00:12:00] we only got like one or two. And I, I was sort of, I think I was camped out. Before the shop opened so I got one and read it. Ah, lovely and then Ian the guy who ran the store was like, you know Alan Moore and Brian Bolland are gonna be a forbidden planet on Saturday signing copies of this and I said well I guess I know what I'm doing on Saturday So, you know beg borrow and steal the train fought train fare plead to mum Please let me go to London by myself and I didn't I went and I and they and they autographed it Um, but I've re read that book so many times and I absolutely loved it.
And then a strange thing happened. I grew up a little bit, got married, had children, revisited it when they did the new Brian Bolland has, uh, redone John Higgins Colors. I hadn't read it in years. And I have a completely different relationship with that story now. I don't actually like it. Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah, I don't. It's, it's [00:13:00] not a good Batman story. Uh, it's not a good Joker story because it's applying a reason to the Joker. They've attempted to give him a backstory, even though Alan Moore kind of, he, he writes himself an easy out by saying the, the line about, um, mem, uh, multiple choice, like if you're gonna have, if you're gonna have memories, it's better to have it in multiple choice.
And of course, Geoff Johns fricken ran with that in Three Jokers. But I don't like that. I don't, like, don't give him a name. Don't give him a backstory. Don't tell me anything. I just want him to exist. Because he is absolutely terrifying in that form. Once you see the shark in Jaws, the terror gets immediately cut by half.
And it's not because the shark looks plastic. I've always resented that argument. Oh, you can see that it's a big rubber shark. No, and that thing is chomping down on Robert's shore. [00:14:00] It looks pretty good and it's, you know, it's pretty effective. But, right up until the point where the shark goes under the boat, It's a 20 footer.
25! Three tons of him. I can quote that entire movie start to finish by the way, uh, available for children's parties. Um, but it's, you know, the, the fact that the, the, the history of that movie, um, that the shark kept breaking down. So Spielberg, young Spielberg, had to get invented. With how he was going to compose the shot.
We can't show the shark because it won't work. So let's do point of view shots. Let's, let's do him flying through the water. Let's do undershots where you see the legs, uh, uh, splishing in the water. Let's, we're going to have to do all the shots that we can possibly get. Because we can't get the bloody shark to work.
That's what makes that movie so terrifying. And it still holds up. Exactly the same thing with the Joker. Once you start explaining him, Oh, he had a backstory. Oh, he's got this. Oh, he's got that. Oh, maybe he's this. Maybe he's that. What have you. It's reducing the [00:15:00] mystery. Well, that's the Dark Knight premise, right?
Every time you got a The Joker explains where he comes from, it's a different story. Which is genius. I loved it. It is, but that's the problem of the Killing Joke is that If, if, or my problem with the Killing Joke, I should say. Um, it's not everyone's problem with the Killing Joke. Although it should be, Danny, because I know I'm right.
Um, is that what Moore does is, I don't think he makes it clear enough. That those flashbacks to the failed stand up comedian with the pregnant wife and the sad sack who then gets lured in by the two heavies to put on the red mask, the red hood, sorry, and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He doesn't make it clear enough that that is hallucinatory.
That's, that's one of many possible... Origins for the Joker. He doesn't make that clear. So that's why for the longest time, when you hear people reflecting and commenting and discussing the Killing Joke, [00:16:00] they're talking about, oh yeah, I know that story. That's the Joker's origin, isn't it? No, it isn't. But actually, thanks to Geoff Johns, Now it is, because in Three Jokers, we find out that, yeah, the woman, the pregnant wife, she didn't die.
That was a ruse set up by the cops. That kid was born. They're living in Alaska. Batman knows where they are, and it's everything that he must do. And I think in that final page, where Batman, Bruce Wayne, is looking through the window at Mom and this kid, who's got kind of a... Long face and a curly mess of hair, kind of like somebody that we know, only not pale and green.
Uh, that that's his kid, and if the Joker ever found out, ooh, Nelly. But, but that's the thing, now it's, it's, it's in there, it's canon. And, I, I absolutely hate that, and that's why I wonder sometimes, if the killing joke wasn't supposed to be a pre crisis thing. Because after crisis, Batgirl would be, [00:17:00] she, she would have been...
She would have been, uh, uninjured. Unincapacitated. But because the artwork came in so late, Crysis had already happened, Um, and DC ran with the killing joke anyway, I guess somebody in the editorial said, Well, I guess Babs is a paraplegic now. We'll run with that and see where it goes. And they actually got Oracle's a pretty great character.
I think that was a very happy accident. But I don't think that was intended at all. Well, I read this one time. Seventh grade Jason read Killing Joke and I remember loving it and being incredibly disturbed. Like, so disturbed by this thing that I never read it again. I, um, not that I, not that I was scared of it, but it was all, I don't, I don't know.
That, like, that whole psychological thriller, the, the concept of, like, breaking a person and Jim Gordon like the Jim Gordon and his [00:18:00] whitey tighties on the carnival cart and that whole thing Oh joke is singing song yeah that's that was like right so this is a day when I didn't I didn't have the internet it's the 80s the only like I had E.
T. I had the Goonies. Like, the Goonies was pretty edgy for me. And then I had, uh, what did I have? E. T. Goonies. And we've got, uh, uh, I wasn't allowed to watch Dynasty. Like, that was too much. That was too edgy for me. So, Dallas, no J. R. Ewing. I might be influenced. It's, it's, it's funny because it's, I mean, it, don't get me wrong.
I, I see the brilliance in, in, in what more, and, and Bolland, I mean, Brian Bolland. You could make your laundry list look... Fantastic. Yeah. Um, and of course we've all seen that cover, that famous cover of the Joker with the, the, the camera 35 millimeter camera there, the icon camera, [00:19:00] whatever, Panex, whatever it is.
You know, and there's so many things in The Killing Joke that are brilliant. There are, there are things in it that I love. I mean, I'm not gonna sing it for you, but the, the Joker's song, you know, Mr. Life is swell in a padded cell. You can chase your blues away, something rubber room injections twice a day, what have you?
It's, it's genius stuff. Although, Mark Hamill singing that in the movie disappointed me, because I always heard that in my head as more of a ragtime sort of, We go loony like a light bulb batted bug. And Mark Hamill is singing it like this funeral dirge. Like a crooner? Kind of, yeah. Mr. Life is swell, in a padded cell.
You know, no, it's... Give me a break. It's, it's more lively than that. You know, he's tap dancing and twirling a cane. You don't do that when, when you're singing a dirge. Um, well, he's not doing it. I don't want to be judgy here, but, you know, maybe I missed something. Um, that's as far as I got. I hung in there for the song and was like, nope, I'm done.[00:20:00]
So I actually bailed, what, five minutes before the end. Just go and watch the end. I'm like, nah, I'm done. You know, I've had, I've had all I can stans and I can't stans. I've had all I can stans and I can't stans no more. I reflect back on what Jason is saying about his interpretation, children's lives from seventh grade.
Seventh grade. Oh, oh, sorry. I didn't finish One more thing. Okay. We'll go back to you. Yeah. So there was a, there was a guy in the, in the shop yesterday. Right. And, um, I was, I was talking about how Great Night Wing was right now. Hmm. And one of the fun things in Night Wing right now is the relationship between Babs and, and, uh, Dick Grayson.
Right. And this, uh, this guy was like, Nope, did Grayson and Batgirl, can't handle Batgirl anymore. I was like, why? He goes, because she was sleeping with Batman. I was like, whoa, when did this happen? Oh man, okay. He said, in the killing joke. Right, okay. And I said, I don't remember that at all. Now remember, I read the story one time, [00:21:00] 7th grade.
We actually sold my copy here at the shop. Right. Years later. But, um. But I read the story one time. And I said, are you sure? I don't remember that at all. Now, I was, you know, I remember the gunshot. I remember the, um, I remember the Jim Gordon thing I talked about. That's all, that's all I really remember from the whole thing.
He goes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, they do that. Turns out, that's just from the movie. The guy hasn't actually read the book. So, like, in this conversation, it's just the movie. It's just the movie. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, go ahead. No, no, well, I'm thinking about because I have a long standing respect for Alan Moore but I also know that a lot of times it's and this is true for a lot of writers, but it's the art.
You put someone else on the killing joke it doesn't have the psychological side to it. Because Brian's art is [00:22:00] something that, I mean, I can see, I can see panels in my head. We're talking about this and I think that content, no content, you know what? I don't know. I remember when I first read it, I thought it was a great Batman story at the time because I was new to DC.
Right. Had not read dark night. Batman in crisis was the typical Batman. So that was my exposure. And then really the next Batman, Title I followed was Batman and the Outsiders, right? After Crisis. Yes. Then I went back. Um, Like you, it's fun to listen to Alan Moore go, Yeah, I just wrote it. I don't know if Alan's ever sat down and said, I'm making the definitive Batman story, the definitive deconstruction.
I mean, I think that's what makes him a brilliant writer, but a frustrating writer at the same, because [00:23:00] you're like this. Batman's story moved so many people, and it's on every top ten, it's on every top ten trade paperback list. Of course. Um, yeah. I mean, it's just, you get this sort of... But for me, it's more for the art in that, in that really particular...
Right. Because I also, I never took that as Joker's origin story. When I first read it, I was like, these are flashbacks, the Joker's crazy. That, that, that way, it was very, it was very simple for me, but I'm a simple man. Well, no, no, it's not, no, it's not that. It's that, that, that is a perfectly logical approach, but it, I think it's also perfectly logical to not have that approach.
And the... yeah, and yes, it is kind of maddening sometimes when you're, when you're... And, and he probably, he probably did it that way on purpose. [00:24:00] Oh, who the hell knows? He's like, I'm gonna do this. And they're gonna be asking whether it's real or not for years. And, I wouldn't be surprised if he purposely did it, did Batman kill Joker.
I, what, like I said, never once in... Thought that was what he absolutely did on purpose. Yeah, but but it it really but again If it was a pre crisis story and everything was coming to an end, it might be like hey, you can do whatever you want Well, but but you know It's sort of like the ending of the Sopranos.
It just goes to black. Yeah He has in his head what happened but and and also Alan Moore pretty much ignored crisis even in a swamp thing books I mean there was There was a couple of banners on there that they put on, but I mean, really, Swampy was just running around with Phantom Stranger and John Constantine.
No, that's true, but... He had to deal with it. Hang on though, hang on though, hang on though. I'm going to take a little bit of a contrary view here. Because first off, Alan Moore gets the final, gets to make [00:25:00] the final statement on Superman. For the man who has everything. Then you've got Crisis. Which, yeah, it, it, it, he's, he's not a part, let me get this straight in my head because it makes sense to me, but it may not make sense to anybody else, like most things I say.
Alan Moore's not got a stake in Crysis because he's doing his American Gothic story. But it turns out that Crysis now has a stake in Alan Moore because clearly somebody's realized, oh hell, that's where all the magic is. So let's, let's tie that puppy in. And as great as Crisis on Infinite Earths is, although I have kind of a difficult relationship with it, which is, has to be another show, as great as that is, um, it's the impact in Swamp Thing that really got to me because it worked so brilliantly with where [00:26:00] Swamp Things American Gothic story was going, because Kevin, that thing was like, went over like a year and change.
Um, the, it's one of these, again, I don't know if it's a happy accident or if it was intended or what have you, but it's sort of like, wow, I mean this is all just brilliant stuff. But I, I, I agree with you, Scott, and I sort of wonder if, you know, part of the luck of Alan Moore is that once upon a time, You know, he, he was sitting in his living room in, in, uh, Northampton Shift.
Uh, or Northampton, sorry. He's got, you know, Eastenders playing in front of him. He's got a chip butty in one hand and a pen in the other. And he's just like, munch, munch, munch. Oh yeah, Joker shoots her through the spine in Paraplegic. Oh, that's tragic. Munch, munch, munch. Oh, and they have a laugh at the end.
That's it. Sold. Next. You know, it could, and then of course we read it like, Oh, there's all this depth to it. And as far as Alan Moore's concerned, No, I just wrote that Batman story I wrote while I was eating a chip butty. [00:27:00] butty No, nobody does. Oh, okay. So, a chip butty is where you take two pieces of sliced bread and you put butter on them.
And then you put chips that you've just fried, and you make a sandwich out of it, and it's fantastic. So now when you say chips, are you talking about french fries or chip chips? I'm talking about chip chips. Oh, I'm talking about chips. French fries is, uh, where you Americans are actually being shorted, because they only give you a little bit of the potato.
But in England, they give you a proper amount of the potato. It's a nice thick wedge, and you can dunk it into things. But you're not talking like Lay's. You're talking about... Oh, you are talking about legs. No, no, no. No, it's not, no, no. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's like the disc sort of, like, the, the round cut... Oh, you...
Chips. Like, you, like, could you get fish and chips? Snuggers. Like, the wedge fries? Yes. The wedge fries. Oh. Chips, as you guys know, you bag of lays. Those are crisps. Yes, I know. That's, I see. I was trying to help with the translation. This is the language. It's like, this is like the [00:28:00] football rugby thing. No, it's, no, no, no.
Well, I'm playing into this because... Yeah, I know. When I'm in England and I've gone to a McDonald's drive thru and I've asked for french fries... I've actually had this happen a couple of times, where the, the, you know, sort of, crackly voice on the other end, Uh, could you take that? I want a large order of french fries with the Big Mac.
Oh, what do you mean? Chips! It's like, not even freaking french fries. But, keep in mind, and all the love in the world to my, to my British brethren, Uh, but this is also a country that refers to it as the fillet of fish sandwich. Yes. And, I corrected somebody on that once, and they said, well no, because there's an effing T in it.
And I say, oh, do you refer to it as fillet mignon? That's why they don't let you back over. No, no, no, this is why every time. Well that, that whole Interpol thing, that's for the show. Um, but this plays into Alan Moore, comic genius or crazy guy under the high wall. And that has to be a show on it's own.
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